I'd like to move this conversation back to the privileges of male gamers, rather than a discussion of women game developers.
Totally worth doing!
I'm sure I'll be accused of white knighting for this, but I've been trying to make the places I play games in more inclusive and approachable. Sometimes that means inserting small spanners into the flow of enjoyment of a game when someone says something regressive or exclusionary in voice chat - just a little "I don't see what's bad about being gay, it certainly doesn't influence someone's aim" or "Wait, you're insulting someone for using a female character model?" it's actually really eye-opening to see how people respond to that in LoL, for instance.
Then there was the whole "gay." tag back in the TF2 days. That was actually a lot of fun, and I hope it made the TF2 environment in SA a little less hostile while we had a bunch of people actively doing it.
Not reflexively chuckling at that sexist joke you're only laughing at because you know it's expected of you? That's a start.
I'd like to move this conversation back to the privileges of male gamers, rather than a discussion of women game developers.
Totally worth doing!
I'm sure I'll be accused of white knighting for this, but I've been trying to make the places I play games in more inclusive and approachable. Sometimes that means inserting small spanners into the flow of enjoyment of a game when someone says something regressive or exclusionary in voice chat - just a little "I don't see what's bad about being gay, it certainly doesn't influence someone's aim" or "Wait, you're insulting someone for using a female character model?" it's actually really eye-opening to see how people respond to that in LoL, for instance.
Then there was the whole "gay." tag back in the TF2 days. That was actually a lot of fun, and I hope it made the TF2 environment in SA a little less hostile while we had a bunch of people actively doing it.
Not reflexively chuckling at that sexist joke you're only laughing at because you know it's expected of you? That's a start.
That's a great idea, actually.
So, it turns out the RE team is getting back into L4D2 and TF2, plus I have Payday 2.... so, how about we start up some regular games and stuff? :)
I started watching the video expecting to find points I would relate with despite being female, I was wrong.
Then I started thinking a little more. "well, some of them don't really apply to me because the games I like most are kind of devoid of live community" (I was thinking of Anno specifically at that point)
Why?
"I don't really like live communities around games, so much so I'll even abandon a game if I perceive a social aspect as part of the experience"
I don't think "because the industry is built by men, for men, therefore it is only natural for women to be discriminated against and feel excluded from participating" is a good thing to try and justify.
That train of thought assumes "naturally" correlates with "it's right that it's so".
I'd like to think of it as something more like: "We, as human beings, have come a long way, and though we, as a collective, have made missteps in the past, it's ok for us to acknowledge problems and strive for short AND long term solutions. It's not OR, it's AND.
Calling out people being sexist is good. Not reactionarily using sexism is good. What Danny said is good and practical:
just a little "I don't see what's bad about being gay, it certainly doesn't influence someone's aim" or "Wait, you're insulting someone for using a female character model?" it's actually really eye-opening to see how people respond to that in LoL, for instance.
Then there was the whole "gay." tag back in the TF2 days. That was actually a lot of fun, and I hope it made the TF2 environment in SA a little less hostile while we had a bunch of people actively doing it.
Not reflexively chuckling at that sexist joke you're only laughing at because you know it's expected of you? That's a start.
I'm not familiar with the TF2 gay tag thing, though I'm not very involved in online gaming at all. What was that about? How did it help?
I'd like to ask, is it a *thing* to actively try and get gaming social groups to be more "representative" by trying to bring in more female players, or should people forget about that (because it's obviously creepy to go out and solicit female gamers to join) (I'm more talking about boardgames, again, those are the groups I socialise in, much more than online games) (though online boardgame communities I'm big in, and have not yet really encountered much of the behaviours in the video - I'm not dismissing the video, I'm sure it does happen. Which is actually also one of the reasons why I don't participate in online gaming communities)
could we maybe fork this discussion? It feels like there are two conversations happening, but one is louder and drowning out the original. And sadly, actually needs to happen.
Vote to fork? >4 likes required to fork. OP like counts double.
I believe several million people voting for policy change and raising gender inequality as an issue that should be addressed is another way to get policy makers to implement stuff. But it requires several million people to believe that there's a problem in the first place, and to talk about it, and to want it fixed enough for it to be a factor in policy-makers' election campaigns and business marketing. But, more importantly, I think that this is something that we can do, right now, with our interactions every day. This isn't something that's up to Oprah or Hillary Clinton to fix.
This. This. This.
This is why we have these discussions @wogan - to raise awareness. Assume that there are some people who simply don't realise how bad the situation is for women or how privileged they are and having someone say "hey, did you know?" and starting the conversation is a great thing! It's actually how feminism started (if I'm not mistaken) - giving women the opportunity to simply talk about what they were experiencing and feeling and realising that they were having the same experience and wanting to change it.
But, yes, what @damousey said. We're having two conversations here. I really do want to have both, but this thread is about game playing environments.
Couldn't help myself and flung angry words at the guy - oops.
But anyhoo, it dawned on me afterwards that his piece actually does a great job of illustrating the problem highlighted by the video. His comments speak entirely from a position of privilege.
I'd like to get some kind of non-critical-only, practical dialogue going, if anyone's interested in that at all.
I'd like to ask, is it a *thing* to actively try and get gaming social groups to be more "representative" by trying to bring in more female players, or should people forget about that (because it's obviously creepy to go out and solicit female gamers to join) (I'm more talking about boardgames, again, those are the groups I socialise in, much more than online games) (though online boardgame communities I'm big in, and have not yet really encountered much of the behaviours in the video - I'm not dismissing the video, I'm sure it does happen. Which is actually also one of the reasons why I don't participate in online gaming communities)
rustybroomhandle - Wow it's like everyday they give me one more reason not to read their articles. That was horrid.
Not really adding to the discussion with solutions but I can attest to the fact that female gamers are treated differantly. The only online co-op game I play is Monster Hunter, due to the fact that the community is really helpful and very low on abuse/trolling. However in my last play through of MH3U I went as the female character to see some new armour. The differance in how I was treated was very noticeable. Got hit on quite a few times, got told what to do on missions (the other "male" players got none of that) and any mistakes made ,which are usually fine, got me shouted at or kicked from the room instantly. Got to the point where I would just let it be known I'm a guy straight of the bat so things would go better. Also got abused so badly by one guy I switched on my mike for the 1st time and ranted at him so hard and long even the other player started apologizing for his behaviour.
@kidult : maybe you have an idea there... we should start a "be female for a week" campaign. It could raise awareness and people that participate would get a better understanding of how women are treated (as you have experienced). And if, when treated badly (as kidult was), you reveal the "truth", perhaps that person in their embarrassment might start to get some sort of inkling that treating someone that way is not ok, regardless of gender.
That's probably not a terrible idea, as long as you land it with "you shouldn't treat people like that and girls are also people" instead of "don't treat me like that because I'm actually a man" otherwise it'll be completely ineffective for anyone who doesn't have that back door.
Dis didn't elaborate on the "gay" tag above but it was similar. From what I gather, they all carried "gay" as part of their name and made a bit of a mission of confronting the bigotry they encountered for it. So if someone outright asked if they were gay they would replay with questions like "why does it matter? does it make you uncomfortable?"
What seems apparent to me, is that the various forms of harassment and insult, seems very similar to schoolyard bullying. (Like primary school level) The "stronger bigger" boys would exclude the "younger weaker" girls (or boys) from joining in on the games by ostracizing them. I find it sad and amusing that the perpetrators of this type of insulting behavior are perpetuating a primitive and anti-social mindset that should have been outgrown years ago... It makes me wonder if - the behavior is perhaps a result of something like arrested development? - or perhaps it is like "hazing" where (Now finally in a field of prowess) they do to others what was done to them in other ares of life where they were not as capable. - or perhaps the behavior originates from a player so young, that they have yet to develop awareness and understanding of what they are doing wrong....
In any regard, it is sad. Whenever I engage in online gaming activity, I often play as female characters, or I play with avatars/usernames that have no indication of gender. I would simply enjoy the game, or at least I used to. In the last 5 to 8 years, players have gained more administrative rights to their own game sessions. This seems to have bolstered the guts of gamers that have low self esteem issues, or that are dismissive of players that they perceive as weak or young. They employ the schoolyard alpha male tactics to degrade the targeted players, and (as indicated in a post above) go as far as to kick a player off the playground.
In the end, you hope to play with friendly fellow humans, but you find that you've stepped into thunderdome where Orcs are running the show.
Finding it hard to relate on the community aspect. I love online games. My Girl loves online games. First thing i do in a game is find a way to disable chat messages being displayed and mute all voice.
We both do it for the same reason which has nothing to do with sexist remarks. Its purely done because im there to play a game. Not chit chat or listen to 11 year old's trolling.
Comments
I'm sure I'll be accused of white knighting for this, but I've been trying to make the places I play games in more inclusive and approachable. Sometimes that means inserting small spanners into the flow of enjoyment of a game when someone says something regressive or exclusionary in voice chat - just a little "I don't see what's bad about being gay, it certainly doesn't influence someone's aim" or "Wait, you're insulting someone for using a female character model?" it's actually really eye-opening to see how people respond to that in LoL, for instance.
Then there was the whole "gay." tag back in the TF2 days. That was actually a lot of fun, and I hope it made the TF2 environment in SA a little less hostile while we had a bunch of people actively doing it.
Not reflexively chuckling at that sexist joke you're only laughing at because you know it's expected of you? That's a start.
So, it turns out the RE team is getting back into L4D2 and TF2, plus I have Payday 2.... so, how about we start up some regular games and stuff? :)
I started watching the video expecting to find points I would relate with despite being female, I was wrong.
Then I started thinking a little more.
"well, some of them don't really apply to me because the games I like most are kind of devoid of live community" (I was thinking of Anno specifically at that point)
Why?
"I don't really like live communities around games, so much so I'll even abandon a game if I perceive a social aspect as part of the experience"
Why?
"I don't feel comfortable there
...
oh"
That train of thought assumes "naturally" correlates with "it's right that it's so".
I'd like to think of it as something more like: "We, as human beings, have come a long way, and though we, as a collective, have made missteps in the past, it's ok for us to acknowledge problems and strive for short AND long term solutions. It's not OR, it's AND.
Calling out people being sexist is good.
Not reactionarily using sexism is good.
What Danny said is good and practical: I'm not familiar with the TF2 gay tag thing, though I'm not very involved in online gaming at all. What was that about? How did it help?
I'd like to ask, is it a *thing* to actively try and get gaming social groups to be more "representative" by trying to bring in more female players, or should people forget about that (because it's obviously creepy to go out and solicit female gamers to join) (I'm more talking about boardgames, again, those are the groups I socialise in, much more than online games) (though online boardgame communities I'm big in, and have not yet really encountered much of the behaviours in the video - I'm not dismissing the video, I'm sure it does happen. Which is actually also one of the reasons why I don't participate in online gaming communities)
This is why we have these discussions @wogan - to raise awareness. Assume that there are some people who simply don't realise how bad the situation is for women or how privileged they are and having someone say "hey, did you know?" and starting the conversation is a great thing! It's actually how feminism started (if I'm not mistaken) - giving women the opportunity to simply talk about what they were experiencing and feeling and realising that they were having the same experience and wanting to change it.
But, yes, what @damousey said. We're having two conversations here. I really do want to have both, but this thread is about game playing environments.
Couldn't help myself and flung angry words at the guy - oops.
But anyhoo, it dawned on me afterwards that his piece actually does a great job of illustrating the problem highlighted by the video. His comments speak entirely from a position of privilege.
Not really adding to the discussion with solutions but I can attest to the fact that female gamers are treated differantly. The only online co-op game I play is Monster Hunter, due to the fact that the community is really helpful and very low on abuse/trolling. However in my last play through of MH3U I went as the female character to see some new armour. The differance in how I was treated was very noticeable. Got hit on quite a few times, got told what to do on missions (the other "male" players got none of that) and any mistakes made ,which are usually fine, got me shouted at or kicked from the room instantly. Got to the point where I would just let it be known I'm a guy straight of the bat so things would go better. Also got abused so badly by one guy I switched on my mike for the 1st time and ranted at him so hard and long even the other player started apologizing for his behaviour.
Dis didn't elaborate on the "gay" tag above but it was similar. From what I gather, they all carried "gay" as part of their name and made a bit of a mission of confronting the bigotry they encountered for it. So if someone outright asked if they were gay they would replay with questions like "why does it matter? does it make you uncomfortable?"
I find it sad and amusing that the perpetrators of this type of insulting behavior are perpetuating a primitive and anti-social mindset that should have been outgrown years ago... It makes me wonder if
- the behavior is perhaps a result of something like arrested development?
- or perhaps it is like "hazing" where (Now finally in a field of prowess) they do to others what was done to them in other ares of life where they were not as capable.
- or perhaps the behavior originates from a player so young, that they have yet to develop awareness and understanding of what they are doing wrong....
In any regard, it is sad.
Whenever I engage in online gaming activity, I often play as female characters, or I play with avatars/usernames that have no indication of gender. I would simply enjoy the game, or at least I used to. In the last 5 to 8 years, players have gained more administrative rights to their own game sessions. This seems to have bolstered the guts of gamers that have low self esteem issues, or that are dismissive of players that they perceive as weak or young. They employ the schoolyard alpha male tactics to degrade the targeted players, and (as indicated in a post above) go as far as to kick a player off the playground.
In the end, you hope to play with friendly fellow humans, but you find that you've stepped into thunderdome where Orcs are running the show.
First thing i do in a game is find a way to disable chat messages being displayed and mute all voice.
We both do it for the same reason which has nothing to do with sexist remarks. Its purely done because im there to play a game. Not chit chat or listen to 11 year old's trolling.