[Project] Fight the Monster

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Thanked by 1konman

Comments

  • ... did anyone critique your character art? Because, that's probably something that could be less on the fighting sexdoll side of the spectrum.
  • The whole thing about sex appeal in game characters aren't that simple. There are multiple angles:

    1) It makes no sense, in real terms, if anyone actually thinks about it. Gravity-defying breasts, zero armour, lace bowties, etc, has no place in monster-fighting. Thus it turns away people who actually think about a game's narrative and world-building.

    2) There's a growing consciousness of people who are turned away from sexist visual representations - it's gone from the fringe and is moving into the core (mass consumer) slowly but surely.

    3) There's a bit of "do the right thing" here too, just for oneself personally.

    Sexualised characters aren't "bad" in games. The problem is that when they are sexualised for no good reason at all. Does the narrative justify it? If it does, does it do it equally for males and females? The character's fighting a giant monster. Would you fight a giant monster in that? Why?

    "Catering to a male audience" is no longer an ok thing to pass off without much concern.

    I actually thought the player model was some kind of off-the-shelf prefab. If you're keeping the design, I'd be try to be very aware of the sexualisation and have a good reason for it. Actually good, not "because the world is on its last legs and mankind have been forced to make clones to battle monsters, and because we need swift warriors, they were all made female without armour because armour slows them down". <---- example of a terribly sexist story.
    Thanked by 1Lesedi_Mosadi
  • edited
    Here's the video I wanted to share explaining why the player character needs only 1 or 2 frames of wind up for an attack and how to make the controls feel response with regards to animations. It also covers why it's reversed for enemy animations.

    Design Club - The Animation of Punch Out!! - How the Wii Remake Scored a KO
    Thanked by 1Pierre
  • Pierre said:
    Thank you for the comment.
    You'd be surprised to know that you're the first to comment on this.
    So I'm in the middle of a big release push thing and I don't feel like I have the time to really get into properly, this is a complex issue and to be frank, can make people pretty annoyed :(

    The core of it is that your own personal feelings of what is okay and what isn't are never going to be fully informed. All of this - the representation of women - touches on sexism and a lot of deeply held assumptions that very few people even realise they've internalised. TLDR, this shit is HARD. So yeah.
    Pierre said:
    For the most part people were very pleased with the art and animation, but nobody really commented on the sexualization. My guess is they were too busy dealing with the giant monster.
    I have my own bias in this regard, as I feel like sexualized characters are not a bad thing at all in games.
    I personally like them. But I'm not completely against the idea of making a generally more likeable character.
    It all depends on popular opinion.
    So the way you feel about sexualised characters is not universal. Sexualisation, especially unwanted sexualisation, is a thing that so many people have to deal with as a very negative thing in their everyday lives all the time. It makes them feel afraid, unsafe, drained, unappreciated, harassed and marginalised. It's not cool. And frankly, it doesn't matter to them that you think your reference to that sort of stuff is okay. I would ask people that actually have to deal with these problems constantly what that art makes them think of - I'm just reflecting back to you and I'm certainly not an expert.
    Pierre said:
    If I may ask a few questions for demographic purposes?

    Is there one or two particular types of games that you enjoy playing more often than others, and if so, what are they?
    I don't see why this is important. If it matters, I enjoyed Bayonetta as a character? I get turned off a lot of games and movies that feature silly sexualisation for the sake of "we didn't know how to do this better, so activate the T&A!"
    Pierre said:
    How often (if ever) does the Fighting Sex Doll aspect turn you away from playing/purchasing a game?
    Very often. I didn't think about it much when I was younger, but now that I have a broader friend group, I've heard enough shocking bullshit about how women are perceived and the assumptions men make about them to make me react pretty strongly to this sort of stuff. It's a symptom of a bigger problem, as a creative person working in this field, I won't allow it in any of the work I do.
    Pierre said:
    How would your regard for the game change if the game included an additional alternative playable character that catered to female tastes?
    I think that whole question is very strange and points to some odd assumptions: Why should the character BE sexy at all? Why is it about catering to someone's sexual tastes? This effort has gone into what is essentially a puppet that holds a sword, why? Why is "matching" with a differently sexualised character a solution and HOW would that character be sexualised to "balance it out"?
    Pierre said:
    If you could replace the character with a male character, what would you imagine him to be with regards to sexualization/idealization?
    If I could replace the character I'd keep her gender the same, make her not wear impractical armor or nonsensical high heels (to run around in, right), make her sword make sense, ask women what they'd like to see as a power fantasy and aim for that, fix her boobs, legs and torso and write about her character as though the most important thing about her wasn't that she was simply hot to certain other people.
    Pierre said:
    That is all. your feedback would be tremendously appreciated and considered.
    If anybody else has critique regarding the sexualization , then please feel free to point it out and to follow up with the questions above. Similarly, If somebody approves ( or don't mind) the sexualization then please feel free to respond as well, so that I can build an approval rate.
    This sort of approval rate thinking is flawed - you can't hold up someone saying "this isn't a problem" to counter very real problems. Look, as an artist, you can choose to ignore whatever feedback you want (and nobody can force you to do otherwise), but you have to accept that that's what you're doing and not couch it in "catering to demographics" rationalisations.
    Pierre said:
    NOTE: Artistically, the character design won't be entirely engineered to pleasing the consumer, as certain aspects will be retained for the sake of story based 'persona', but there is a lot room for adjustment, so your feedback is most welcome.
    Look, this is me just typing a quick reply and not properly spending time to consider all the angles, so someone is probably going to take offense at this. But honestly, there are other angles to pleasing consumers than tits and sexiness. Please explore those instead, it'll make your game deeper. Or, if you're still prototyping gameplay, there's no reason to try and sell it using sex.
    Thanked by 2Steamhat dammit
  • edited
    Pierre said:
    Regarding your opinion that the method i use for ascertaining approval rates is flawed; I would be happy to exclude your input, if you do not wish to be a part of this method.
    Sounds like it's already pretty excluded ;)
    Pierre said:
    i believe the growing concern is only the result of media fueled sensationalism. It has given rise to an increase in toned down games, but on the whole, there has always been a wide variety of games that contained less or no sexualization at all. What i notice is that certain industry contributors only comply with toning down for the sake of avoiding sjw criticism, not because they necessarily agree. But that's just my personal perception.
    Hahahahaha, what? ... Honestly?
  • edited
    For what it's worth, I've grown to be against hypersexualized characters too. Mainly because for every "good" reason I can think of to have one, I can think of many reasons why it's a bad idea.

    I get wanting to make something that you find attractive. But I'd argue that it's worth exploring two points: (1) why what you find (especially sexually) attractive has anything to do with how the main character of a game (that is not about having sex) should be designed, and (2) why what you find sexually attractive is what it is anyway. And if you're super attached to the character, it may be worth examining why.

    I used to be super into drawing women because I thought they were graceful and "pure", but then I realised that men could totally be those things too, and that many women totally weren't those things (and to imply that that's what they should be is pretty sexist), to the point where the only correlation was a (harmful) social construct that I didn't want to be a part of. That didn't mean that I stopped drawing women (even "sexy" women), but I started consciously choosing also to draw some men, some non-white women, and some women of non-lingerie-model shapes to include in my visual library, and I firmly believe I'm a better artist (and better human being) for it.

    But having said that, it's pretty cool how much you've done as (what seems like) a one-man-team, and I think the game can feel really good with some responsive sound and effects, and designed lighting. (Based on what I saw in the Youtube video anyway.) Good luck!
  • edited
    Pierre said:

    - making a game featuring an exciting and strong character that I find attractive and beautiful
    - the comical expression of how game design culture tends to over inflate things like weapons, armor, sex appeal etc.
    - a knee jerk rebellious reaction to "stick it to" those that seek to impose/effect/control what I consider a creative freedom.
    1. There is an argument in the Bayonetta type being strong. I guess that's completely not fleshed out in here (or anywhere) so it's only fair that an outside observer can only see fighting sexdoll. I personally still think Bayonetta borderlines on pure sexism because it can easily be said that the "strong promiscuous type" was manufactured to satisfy the male gaze, and also, impractical, flamboyant outfits are great if they're willingly put on and all, but if the character may die (lose all health, be defeated), then any sane person would upgrade their attire to something actually protective. The fact that they don't indicates either a flaw in the writing or that the character is actually insane, neither of which are desirable.

    The only logical outcome where someone would forget all practicality in their outfit is if they're invincible. Which usually makes for terrible games (lack of urgency, boring, etc). But hey I can be proven wrong.


    2. The "it's satire" shot is really really cheap if not done correctly. I don't buy it anymore unless it's done in a way that actually ends up questioning the concept as the product's core concept. Hotline Miami is ALL about violence. You can't look away from it, and hence it's satirical on videogame violence. GTA was there too. There's game coming called "Ladykiller in a bind" (previously titled something much longer and arguably better) which is literally all about sex. You could have sexual engagement anyone in the game if you wished. That game is all about sex and a satire/exploration on sex in games.

    Your game is not about sex at all. It happens to use a character that has sex appeal with very little justification.


    3. The people you are "sticking it to" are those who've been way underrepresented. They are women both making games and women represented in games. The people you are "sticking it to" are not all-powerful gods of corporates, they are those who have been exploited for profit for a long, long time. You're not being brave and avant-garde, you're being conformist and repetitive. If that's fine to you, you don't have to think about what you're making and how it contributes to society as a whole.


    ---------------------------------------------

    All that said, I'm also just expressing a personal opinion here, just as you say you are :) No harm meant.

    It's very impressive the tech you've made on your own :) It looks and moves well. Game-wise, the moment you produce your game to the style of AAA, you are now being compared to AAA production standards (oh you know, with tens of hundreds of people). Are you ok with your game being compared to AAA, knowing that people would probably find it lacking next to, say, Heavenly Sword or Monster Hunter series, etc? It would be unfair comparisons, but the player doesn't care, they just see the game, not the size of the studio that made it.

    It is entirely possible to create the type of game you're making without being subject to AAA comparisons if you adjusted the style a bit. Going for realism has the hefty price of bad animation being glaringly stand-out, and massive production times for any/all assets and changes.

    It's just a thought, you can be "true to your art" and go balls to the wall despite advice, if you'd like too :) Or maybe you're just *that good* and can knock everything out in two weeks :) I don't know :)

    Good luck :)
    Thanked by 2Pierre dammit
  • @Pierre: I'd love to take the time to read this thread in its entirety (I have scanned over it and have a very good idea of the contents), and make a proper comment refuting your points and explaining how your decision to use insist on a hyper-sexualized female character is wrong on so many levels (including from a business perspective), but you seem to be unwilling to listen to pretty much anyone in the community on that front. So I'd just like to offer my personal perspective:

    I hate games and other forms of media that have hyper-sexualized female characters like this. I would never spend money on such a game, and I would actively persuade others. As a game developer and wannabe designer, I would not take the time to try and offer feedback (other than requesting you change the hyper-sexualized part), because I honestly don't want to have any association with such a game.

    Obviously not everyone shares my opinion, and unfortunately it seems unlikely that this comment will actually persuade you from your choice, but it's worth nothing that no one has said they think your idea is good. I think it's important to realise that if people with great buckets of experience take the time to write carefully-constructed arguments for why you should change something like @dislekcia, @Elyaradine and @Tuism have done, and you don't actually listen to them, you're gonna have a bad time.
    Thanked by 2Steamhat dammit
  • @Pierre: Whoa, back away from the red pills there dude.

    Your arguments and justifications are very common and thoroughly debunked (does anyone have a @Brondin signal handy?). Suffice to say that all of your "the character likes this" justifications are hollow: You've built that character, it's an entirely constructed entity that exists because you want it to. As such, your choices being indicative of certain assumptions and modes of thinking is a thing people are going to react to... I appreciate that you believe "SJW criticism" to be a horrible thing, but it's actually just a chance to learn more about other people and the experiences they have with your art.

    I hope you don't feel attacked on this thread, but I'd like to point out that if you want to talk about other aspects of game design, maybe you shouldn't include the sexy character in prototypes? It's clearly a bigger deal for other people than you think it is, and it's going to be difficult for players to overlook and give you the feedback you're looking for instead. If you have to keep steering away from a thing, maybe you've underestimated its impact.
  • edited
    Hey! This looks pretty sweet so far. I love the fact that the monster's feet are dynamically placed. It makes it feel part of the world. A lot of large spider bosses (even ones in AAA games like Dark Souls 2) have legs that slide across the floor when the spider turns, and this always feels bad to me.

    And I also love that the monster is kind of a patched together flesh abomination spider.

    From your list of feedback it looks like you have a lot to work with already. Though I'd like to offer a bit as well :)

    Regarding the monster's attack animations: I think many of the Dark Souls bosses are designed very well for giving the player a clear warning of when they're going to attack, I expect you're going to be working on that with that reference video of Punch-Out. Maybe look at some videos of Dark Souls bosses. Sound can also be used as a warning, or even other things in the environments (like the scene darkening, though that's probably not thematic for this boss).

    Does the character double jump, or is the character jumping off the monster itself? Being able to interact with the monster (like jumping on it) would be rad, and it looks like the game is designed to provide that sort of experience.

    You definitely need some footstep sounds for the monster, and a little camera shake to make it feel heavy would be RAD.

    In the video the body and the legs don't feel entirely connected. The body of the monster appears to move smoothly and the legs follow it (or precede it rather). If you put some slow-downs in the monster's body movement when the monster is placing a leg it might feel like the body and the legs are more connected (though I know this is probably a fair bit of work). All the videos of spider walk cycles I can find seems to move the body forward fairly uniformly, but they all have a fair bit of bobble as the spider walks:

    I personally would really love to try my hand at making a game like this someday. I think there's a ton of exciting things that haven't been tried yet in 3rd person fighting giant monsters games.

    For the record, I'm not a fan of sexualized female avatars. I don't feel empowered playing as one, I really don't like the idea of dressing myself like an exotic dancer and then fighting monsters. It's not a fantasy I desire, and it makes it hard for me to believe in the fantasy of the game. (And obviously there's a lot of science showing that games with sexualized depictions of women is harmful to the people who play them).



  • @dislekcia I answered the signal only to find that you, @Tuism, and @Elyaradine have already given great feedback here :)
    Pierre said:

    But i really shouldn't try to clarify Emi's design motivations until a full story is released. As it stands i am not convinced to change her much, and I'm willing to roll with the heat of criticism, as i feel it will still appeal to a large group.
    I'm not particularly fond of arguments from financial imperative, but audience appeal seems to be at least a small factor here, so I thought I'd point out some counter-examples that maybe show that, in terms of monetary success and publicity, non-sexualised character design might actually work in an artist's favour, rather than against them. Consider Ms. Marvel and Thor, two of the best selling comics every month since they launched, both with female protagonists who don't have hypersexualised character design. A lot of people are buying those books in part because they don't adhere to Rob Liefeld style art, and because they represent well rounded characters who don't exist for the sole purpose of satisfying the male gaze.
    Pierre said:
    Another trend I see often (but not with all) is what I perceive to be some form of psychological projection and identification by real world individuals with fictional characters, and assuming a kind of ownership/authority for personal defense on behalf of the character; As if it was they themselves that are being forced into wearing sexy clothes or having perky breasts
    You may have heard the phrase "representation matters" used a lot in the 'SJW criticism' you aren't particularly fond of. Going back to Ms. Marvel, consider this story of two Muslim women being overjoyed at finding that book in their local comic store, and seeing a character much like themselves appear as a superhero in a Marvel comic. The sort of "psychological projection" reaction, as you describe it, is one that deserves a whole lot more empathy. For women and other marginalised groups, finding fiction that faithfully represents their experiences (or elements thereof) is a real rarity, and I imagine (and have been told) that they're quite tired of only seeing themselves reflected in fiction as token characters, villains, and sex objects. They're not mad because they think the fiction requires them to behave in that way, they're mad because it's so seldom that fiction actually treats them as fully realised people (if they appear at all).

    Of course, the barrier between media and its consumer is a semi-permeable one. We bring our own views to the table when we engage with media, and in turn that media has an effect on our views. If we consume enough media that only shows women as sex objects, and that consumption isn't critical of the ideologies which inform that fiction, those ideologies begin to drill their way into our own conceptualisations of the world and society. And that's another factor in why people get upset about representation issues, because the fact that we're constantly exposed to the idea that minorities aren't fully fledged people has a very real effect on the way that a lot of real people think about those marginalised groups.
    Pierre said:
    It actually insults me when strangers do that with a fictional character that is actually in essence a part of myself.
    It insults me when women assume a kind of authority over my creation on the grounds that my creation is female like them. The choice that Emi (my character above) makes in how she dresses is thereby counter actively slut shamed. It slut shames me.
    I appreciate your concern with authorial intent, and the idea the text is imbued with a part of yourself, but that's not particularly relevant to the way in which meaning is interpreted by readers. Sure, the text is a (more or less) static entity that you've created, carefully constructed according to your vision for it, but that's pretty much the extent to which you really have authority over what something means to someone engaging with your game. Meaning is far more a product of the engagement between the text and its reader than a direct dialogue between creator and reader. If someone takes a particular interpretation away from the thing you made, it's worth considering the role that the thing you made had in providing them with grounds for that interpretation.

    Also, as much as I love talking about canon and lore, they aren't real things beyond our construction of them as some sort of metatextual ritual. Setting and characters are made up, Emi doesn't decide how she dresses, you designed the character. I highly doubt there was any real agency on her part as to what to wear while fighting the monster(s), so I'm not really sure it makes sense to talk about criticism of her outfit as an indictment of the character as a living breathing person, when it's aimed at a particular element within the text.

    So yeah, if your artistic vision for the project is super important in spite of all of this, nobody can really stop you from going ahead with this, nor do I think that they should. I also see the merit in creating something that appeals to you and that you enjoy, it's a really powerful process. I just want to point out that if that creation is something you're planning on putting out into the wider world, there is also a lot of value in making an effort to ensure that it appeals to a much larger portion of that world. :)

    (I'm really tired after reading and writing about this stuff all day, so if I've failed to make sense anywhere, as I'm sure is the case, just let me know and I'll do my best to clarify)
  • edited
    I don't really know how this grappling hook actually works (I don't remember seeing it in the video?), so I'm not sure how important that is to your gameplay. Overall, if you're selling the fantasy of fighting a giant monster, whether the rope wraps around the side of the building probably isn't important, and if you left it out probably nobody would know. But if realistic physics is core to how you fight the monster, then it may be worth investing the time in getting that to feel* really good. (So, if this were an Attack on Titan game, where according to the anime a lot of the battles take place in cities where people swing on wires in small groups trying to circle/swing around giants, then it's probably pretty darn vital. If it's Devil May Cry, then there's plenty else to focus on.)

    Feeling really good is way more important than looking realistic, as long as what happens with movement and feedback based on what the player tried to do with the controls matches up. Sometimes it helps to separate the visuals from what happens under the hood. It's fine not to have the rope actually simulate or anything, and it could be something stupidly simple/hacky that gives the right feeling. (I dunno, maybe the rope and character are all just children of some rotating pivot, and if you almost never see the connection, then who cares if it attaches correctly? :P)

    --
    I think even in the real world, animals behave in reasonable, rational and somewhat-predictable ways. I think a completely random enemy wouldn't be fun to fight (because there's no "getting better" at the game, or feeling as if you're improving somehow, because it's effectively the same thing as trying to beat someone else at rolling dice), whereas an enemy who's governed by rules is a bit more engaging. (Rock-paper-scissors has a little bit more of a psychological aspect to it, so that even if the choices might be random, there's the feeling of how you might be able to out-smart someone if you knew them well enough. I once managed to win 11 times in a row, partly because of predicting what someone would do, and admittedly largely because of luck.)

    I think it may be more helpful to imagine what kind of feeling you want the player to experience playing the game, and to try and design the combat around making that more likely.
    Thanked by 1Pierre
  • Is there a way to test a natural chaos approach to the monster behaviour?

    Some of the bosses in Dark Souls / Blood Borne keep coming at you very aggressively (I don't have much facing large monsters experience in games outside of the series), and constantly putting pressure on the player might feel rad if it forces the player to be ingenuitive in evading it while attacking back.

    Evading appears quite enjoyable in Fight the Monster, there are more movement options than in Dark Souls, so you might not need the deliberate pauses that allow the back and forth of trading blows that most boss fighting games have.

    Maybe that's not what you meant by natural chaos though. But it sounds to me is it might highlight the mobility in the game, which is something you seem to want to make a strength in any case.

    (I have only watched the video. There is no link for a prototype in this thread as far as I can see).
    Thanked by 1Pierre
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    well this was quite a bit to get through... and for the most part I would be imparting words that have been covered, obviously I shall attempt not to...
    The basics: this is rather impressive as a singular person's work, both making assets and in programming.
    I wonder if you have considered how this translates into other platforms, as for someone concerned about appeal for the audience, this is not the kind of game type that is complimented by a keyboard and mouse interface, basically wondering if you have considered controller schemes and how that may change how the game is played and how characters will interact. judging from the video, it appears this is working off mouse aiming.

    Now juicy visual design... I encourage you desperately to look at this: The Death of the Author @brondin already linked towards it, but there's the simplified version, In short being aware and gaining empathy for outside opinion and experiences not your own. There's been plenty of well deserved critique on the nature of the oversexed battle-doll and I cannot for the life of my scheme reason for the design other than insistent insensitivity to the subject.

    But yes, if you are insistent on the state, by all means carry on as you were and prepare to be ripped apart by critics and future players alike, outside of this environment, who are sensitive to careless oversexualization.

    BUT FAR MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR SENSIBILITIES:
    The visual design needs work. upon juxtaposition, the aesthetics of girl and monster is at war, the use of 'beef jerky' meaty textures on the monster bring about a feel of silent hill or other body horror yet the main character, Emi? is totally outside of said look, with it's anime sensibility, I advise a more refined cartoony style to adapt the monster to her, or, far more work, a more human-appearing Emi, to compliment the bloody 'real world' monster and environment.

    CHARACTER DESIGN:
    Silhouette is drastically important to game visual design, to translate information to the player, as @BlackShipsFilltheSky has signified, the monster translates very little to the player beyond it's movement and position.
    Equally, Emi's character design translates very little to the player, less effective than a thick lined stick figure, with minuscule body proportions, there is almost no information of them given to the viewer as soon as they move.
    Your sex-doll aesthetic is working heavily against you, making the character too thin to really identify easily, as well as the twisted abomination to anatomy that they are makes most more uncomfortable seeing her, than they are seeing the monster, her impossible body is unnerving and bizarre. With breasts not doing what breasts do, Hair not doing what hair does, and high heels simply making these needle like legs which appear more as a glitch during movement than actually movement.
    If I would give pointers on effective character design:
    Forget the hair, make it add to their silhouette before worrying about technically impressive dynamics, the rest of her doesn't obey physics, why settle on her hair doing so?
    Make armour that at least brings less confusion, the largest element are bizarre wing arm bands that wave about and translate very little.
    Legs thicker, to give the player orientation and grounding and simply seeing the character easier, same going for generally wider body parts.
    No-one will care about jiggly boobs when they appear to be tossing and turning whilst nailed to a pole.
    Aforementioned textures and general visual look, there are too many clashing elements.

    as a final note. That sword literally looks like a penis. it's literally a shaft and balls. like... I don't know if that was the intent, but that is what I am seeing here.

    Take a look see at League of Legends, their female characters are happily as manically sexual as Emi, but you see their detailing, and visual signifiers are all abound in said game, with easy identification of all the important elements, the creeps separate from the characters and the environment respectively.

    The major detail of making something better is accepting criticism, but also criticism to yourself, you cannot truly understand another point of view, but empathy to another situation can help. Accept that you may not know all there is to know about being a woman and others different to yourself and you'll be a better designer for it.
  • Even though it's buggy I think you should still release a build so people can give you better feedback. I didn't get a chance to play with the grappling hook at the community night and I'd like to give it a proper go before I comment.
  • Likewise, although it was cool to meet you and discuss the game on Tuesday, I didn't get a chance to actually play the thing. A playable build would be appreciated to give some solid feedback.
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    Pierre said:
    There appears to be some assumption going around that I am unwilling or unable to accept criticism?
    Reason:
    Steamhat said:
    That sword literally looks like a penis. it's literally a shaft and balls. like... I don't know if that was the intent, but that is what I am seeing here.
    Pierre said:
    As for the sword. I guess some will see a penis in just about everything. It was certainly not the intent, and I'm rather fond of a design that i consider to be nothing like a penis in anyway whatsoever.
    Translation: I reject your reality and substitute my own. It's your fault for seeing a penis in anything, what is wrong with you?

    This is what your approach to being critiqued looks like over and over again, you flat out ignore it, find reasons to dismiss it or ways to re-cast it as somehow the fault of the observer. That's why people are reacting as though you're having defensive reactions to crit - you are, those are defensive reactions ;)

    Instead of trying to "defeat" critique so that you don't have to engage with it, it's a much better idea to echo back to people that you understand their point of view and appreciate their time to try and communicate it. If you don't understand their perspective, maybe ask a question or two. Once you've shown that you really do get where someone is coming from, it's much easier for them to understand what you choose to do about it - even if the outcome is that you're not really going to change your work as a result.

    In short: You look bad at dealing with criticism, which is why people are trying to be nice about criticising your work. Nobody is trying to be condescending, and casting things that way isn't a very good idea.
    Thanked by 2Tuism Steamhat
  • So on several occasions someone has pointed out a flaw to the work done in this game, and time and time again you have explained that you won't change it because you don't share the views we are expressing. That is literally not accepting critique.
    If there is anything that I am passionate about, it's visual design, to practice this I will create a design, refined by myself to look it's best, then show it to others if I plan to use it further, and hopefully any feedback from others, will be taken seriously. Because I am not perfect, I need to know more.

    Your approach is simply not admirable, Not accepting that there are perspectives outside of yourself. I implore you to read through the other threads that have been exploring issues of diversity and how they pertain to artists and video games. We here are predominantly controlled by the opinions of white straight males and as a result we simply need to be sensitive to the perspectives of 'the other' else we shall crush ourselves in our own limited view.
    This is not always because of propaganda from the SJW illuminati, this is recently because Game developers think it'd be good to be decent people. We also consider women people, and wish to treat them as such.

    if it helps, a shortened lesson in Phallic Symbology:
    image
    This is a cock sword. this sword is shaped like a cock. it even has a larger head to compliment it's separate testes.
    Thanked by 1notsimon207
  • @Steamhat - I think you're seeing to much in the design imo. I asked 3 separate people and they didn't see it. And for that matter even if it is penis shaped why not? It's an interesting enough design, seems fairly functional and the people who looked at it all commented on the patterns. Also a penis sword seems somehow fitting for the sex doll look surely?
    Thanked by 2Pierre notsimon207
  • That's a nice-looking cock tho.
  • :/ So, I'm saddened that anyone is bothering to give any other feedback on the game here because clearly @Pierre sees that as support of the game in its entirety (and thus support from the community at large) when quite obviously there is a horrendous sexualisation problem. Yes, everyone is also mentioning that (sometimes just at the end of the a long post praising the rest of his work) but he's happily ignoring all of that feedback.

    I'm just asking you guys if you want someone like this around? Because I would rather just not have this kind of awful shit on our forums and continuing to offer support to him is going to keep him here and say we're okay with this.
  • @dammit: I'm conflicted.

    On one hand, I feel that it's important to see people as multifaceted human beings. I think that there are things I can learn a great deal about from people who have fundamentally different moral or ethical viewpoints to me. This is how I've evolved my understanding of feminism, of religion, of politics: by discussing this stuff with people whose views are hugely different to mine, even on fundamental moral/ethical topics. I think chasing people (who clearly really want to make games) out of this community is a huge mistake. And if I were to assume for argument's sake the assumption that his depiction is just a subjective artistic choice, rather than a purposefully hurtful one, I feel his responses have actually been overall quite good-natured, and I feel as if I should be able to give feedback to whoever's receptive to it.

    On the other hand, I understand that how he depicted a woman is harmful, and I understand that I'm unlikely to grasp just how much seeing this stuff on the forums hurts other people. And there's the possibility that having this kind of content around would discourage many (especially more oppressed people) from being active in the community because of not wanting to be exposed to this kind of hurt.
    Thanked by 2Pierre AngryMoose
  • So, basically, it's fine that he is sexist in his representation of half of the world's population, as long as he's willing to discuss his sexist views with you and that he makes games?
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    I don't think functionally exiling someone from the forums on the basis of a problematic character design is a healthy precedent to set. If Pierre were being blatantly rude, disruptive or trollish in his responses I'd advocate dropping the banhammer, but he's not, so I won't.

    Doesn't mean I agree with him though. I'll explictly state that I think Ms. Angel-maid Sex-o-roid is a ridiculous, tasteless character design. I would like to judge the game on its other aspects as well though, not to negate the questionable character design, but to try improve the game in addition to critique of the questionable character design. People are rightfully upset, but let's try turn this into a net positive, yeah? However, Pierre shouldn't be surprised if this sort of thing keeps coming up in the critique...
  • @dammit: It's not fine. That's why it's important to question and challenge this kind of representation whenever it comes up. If we want to grow as a community, especially if we want to become more diverse (as any responsible community in SA should), then as a whole we need to be intolerant of sexism - if only so that people who bear the brunt of the effects of everyday sexism feel more welcome here. I doubt we lose much if we have less boobs bolted onto things, but we don't even know how many people we lose who take one look at unchallenged sexism and back the hell away.

    And that's the key: Unchallenged sexism. This isn't unchallenged. People are allowed to make mistakes and to be offensive, if @Pierre wants to keep making his main character look like this, there's little that we can do to stop it... But it's not going to be accepted as normal. It's not okay. We have a responsibility to make sure this isn't normalised, which is why I think it's incredibly important to push back against sexism and not accept blithe dismissal of that criticism.

    Perhaps people providing critique of @Pierre's game will offer him insight into how his character choice is irrelevant to gameplay and the only reason she looks like she does is because he wants her to. Perhaps his newfound engagement with criticism will help... And I'd rather not assume that someone was irredeemable until they truly start spouting GG bullshit.
    Elyaradine said:
    On the other hand, I understand that how he depicted a woman is harmful, and I understand that I'm unlikely to grasp just how much seeing this stuff on the forums hurts other people. And there's the possibility that having this kind of content around would discourage many (especially more oppressed people) from being active in the community because of not wanting to be exposed to this kind of hurt.
    That's the rub.
    Thanked by 2Steamhat AngryMoose
  • Since it's come to it, I might as well mention that I, no doubt like many others, initially didn't want to interact with this project at all due to the content that I saw it contained. Any constructive criticism or positive reaction that the gameplay or controls might deserve was pretty much immediately overwhelmed by the aesthetic impact. It's not that i'm hurt or offended by it, it's more that this sort of direction is very clearly so outside of my realm of interest or respect that I honestly couldn't be bothered to attempt to dissect it.

    I'm not trying to be particularly harsh, but I think @Pierre needs to understand that any constructive reactions you are getting are from the few who are much kinder and more patient than a stranger would be. It sucks to be on the wrong end of the sword of justice, but if someone is genuinely trying to explain to you why encouraging the objectification of people is wrong, then it may be worth it to listen.
    Thanked by 1Steamhat
  • I'm still reading the responses as "as long as we mention that his game is full of shitty stereotypes, it's fine."

    Seriously? He's clearly not going to change the character (he's said so multiple times) and so any further interactions and critique of his game shows support for his decisions collectively. This is making me want to leave the forums completely, if the attitude is simply to let this slide.

    I mean, consider if the game was inherently racist and the maker refused to change that aspect. I do not care if it is the best damned designed game in the whole wide world and would change our understanding of gameplay forever - the fact that it is problematic to a population group is enough for me to say stop.


    *I will note that I would be totally fine with a discussion where the game dev realised his errors and fixed his character design. I think we all understand that we're all capable of making mistakes (hell, I've already admitted mine elsewhere on the forums) but here the dev is defending a decision that he's been called on that is so clearly problematic. If we continue to allow this thread to exist on the forums we're saying that MGSA is okay with this kind of content.
  • While it does seem that he is disinclined to change his character, I think a large part of that is because he isn't understanding why or how it is actually harmful to people. Probably the biggest culprit is his inability to empathise with the demographic that he is harming, but another culprit is possibly just that he simply doesn't understand how portraying people like that is belittling and disrespectful due to the historical context that we currently exist within.

    If women were historically treated equally and respectfully, if we lived in a world where women aren't habitually regarded as sex objects, property, or instruments of reproduction. Then a character in a game with plastic pin on balloon breasts and impractical body socks would NOT be a trope, it would have just been a strangely amusing fetish that you could entertain and nobody would really care. But the fact of the matter is, this is not the reality we live in. In this reality, that sort of irresponsible portrayal encourages and enforces ideas that are oppressive and harmful to 50% of the population. Depicting a human being as a sex toy that jumps around for your amusement is just not funny, because unfortunately TOO many people genuinely think this is normal, and that is why it is harmful.
    Thanked by 2francoisvn Steamhat
  • I'm just asking you guys if you want someone like this around? Because I would rather just not have this kind of awful shit on our forums and continuing to offer support to him is going to keep him here and say we're okay with this.
    I sympathize with your feelings here, really, but I'm inclined to critique and educate rather than ban, myself. Except in truly intractable or malicious cases.

    There are always people who are just starting out on the journey to understanding. Telling people to get lost doesn't really do anything to fix the problem, unless the problem is that they're trolling.

    @Pierre - Apologies up front, this may be a little harsh. But I think there's a necessary point to be made, and it's best made by speaking bluntly.

    Your character is comically sexualized and it's incredibly distracting. If you demoed a God of War clone where the main character ran around with his erect penis proudly displayed, I hope you wouldn't be surprised that people struggled to see past the ridiculousness of the character design to give you feedback on the actual combat mechanics.

    Everyone would be "haha, look at that dong!" And, most likely, "this game is weird and pervy, is it a joke?"

    It doesn't matter if you'd already showed the character off on the Dong Admirers forum and they'd all reassured you that the character design looked perfectly fine. That character would still be...sunglasses...redickulous.

    But guys grow up so immersed in sexualized imagery of women that many struggle to see the issue in a female character design equivalent to dong-display guy.

    Internalize the lesson here. A lot of people are struggling to see past her comical rocketship knockers to the gameplay underneath. It's not just a question of whether folks are ok with a little sexiness in their art or not, the character design is getting in the way of the game being taken seriously.

    Even if you're trying to make the next Bayonetta, that character art goes beyond saucy into silliness, and is hurting your audience's ability to engage with anything other than how ludicrous her breasts are.


  • All this talk of a culture of sexualized characters, and character art that goes beyond saucy into sillyness reminds me of Loadout: http://canadianonlinegamers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Loadout-Outfitter-Helga.jpg (potentially NSFW)

    I'd imagine that they would have got quite a bit of flak for that character as well, but you can kinda see the in-yer-face attitude of it... It does gross me out a lot though for some reason - more than the blurred out wobbly dong they have for the male characters.

    Thanked by 1Pierre
  • That's good to hear, Pierre. :)

    And kudos for calmly engaging with critique on a difficult subject.
  • @Pierre I'm glad to hear you're taking the criticism and changing the main playable character.

    Thanks for listening. This is quite a complicated subject.

    From your responses I'm gathering you still don't quite follow why people are getting so very upset about a sexualized female as a playable character. If you want to find out about this you can Google something like "what are the effects of sexualized images of women".

    If you do research that you'll find there's a lot of really harmful psychological effects (to both men and women, but mostly women). I'm going to assume here that you'd prefer not to harm people with your games.

    (Also, to be clear, there is a difference between sexy and sexualized. Your character is definitely sexualized. The difference between the two is another complicated subject, but if you want to find out about it I'm sure you can ask for advice here)
  • That looks much better, man. :)

    She does seem to be walking on invisible high-heels, though? Might just appear that way from this angle, though, not sure. ;)
    Thanked by 1Pierre
  • edited
    For what it's worth, I'd probably still have said exactly the same thing as my first comment about the character if this is what you'd used as your first set of images...

    The character being clothed is better, yes, but the stance there still screams "I'm sexy for no reason!". I hope you do get the chance to rework the animations. The way that the barbarian characters in Diablo 3 stand and idle seems like a particularly good reference.

    It's also one thing to be comparing to a particularly skinny/sexualised model and starting from there, vs starting from non-sexualised references in the first place. "Normi" is still skinny, with supermodel proportions - those are only "better" when compared to pornstar proportions, new eyes aren't going to be looking at the game with the old art in mind as a watermark to compare to, right?

    As an aside - your character names ending in "I" with a diminutive structure to them, that's on purpose right? Like, I realise that some names might feel like they're not badass enough, but the more I think about it, even random names can have story to them: "This is Ulk, she's trained her entire life with that sword to hew the limbs from the monsters that plague our land. Many do not pick the sword. Ulk does not understand them."
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    Pierre said:
    Her physique is more or less equivalent to mine, so I'll take that compliment. thanks @Dislekcia
    Pics pls! Standing exactly like that :D

    P.S. So this has what do with female representation tho?
    Thanked by 2notsimon207 dammit
  • So I've watched the gameplay video and read through most of the comments. I'm glad your'e getting feedback on your game, I think it has potencial to be really fun. I think you should take a look at Shadow of the Collosus, it's very different from the experience I think you're trying to create but you could get a lot of inspiration whenit comes to fighting and interacting with big monsters.

    I noticed nobody has been giving you feedback on how to improve those big bouncy, slighty too perky jugs... Well I happed to count myself a bit of a connoisseur when it comes to physics simulated boobs.

    So firs off like I said, they are a bit perky for my taste, perhaps up the voluptuousness a bit.
    If you're going for an over the top design with the model, I expect them jugs to be swinging around to the point where they could almost be weaponised. At the moment the effect is a bit too subtle and I don't see them swinging side to side much. I know this is difficult to pull off in an action game where youre fighting a big ass monster (which is why I try keep my simulated sexual fantasies a bit less ellaborate), but if you're going to do this you have to do it right, otherwise it just wont have the same impact.

    Lastly, I hate games that tease and don't deliver on the goods. So if you're including an option for sexy character and physics simulated boobs you sure ass hell better include a level where I get to play as the tentacle monster!
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    I really, really, hope you are kidding, @notsimon207

    http://i.imgur.com/xblF4.gif
  • @raithza Only the last part was a joke. I don't like tentacle porn (I actually dont get the apeal of the whole sexy woman monster fighting deal either, but unfortunatly for the innocent bystanders it kinda just linked up in my head that way).
    Also I really don't like it when games have these super sexy characters that turns you on, unless you're playing the game to get turned on.
    I love physics simulations, and don't have a problem with games like the SexyBeach series; there are many things wrong with it, but I don't think the whole ganre needs to be a complete writeoff becaulse we havn't seen anything that qualifies as a "good" game come out of it. I mean this kind of thinking has braught us physics simulated boobs for peets sake! So when I said " So if you're including an option for sexy character and physics simulated boobs you sure ass hell better include a level where I get to play as the tentacle monster!" I meant, I probably wouldn't play the sexy version unless he actually made it a full on porn game.

    I genuinely think this could be a lot of fun, especially if like blackShips sudgested he makes moving around on the monsters part of the game, more like SOC.
  • going to send you a pm @notsimon207
  • @notsimon207: That was in fantastically bad taste. It was also an epic necropost. If the warning system was up and running, you'd have earned yourself one.

    Consider your posts more carefully please.
    Thanked by 2Bensonance FanieG
  • @dislekcia My oppologies. I'll behave.
    Thanked by 2Bensonance dislekcia
  • @notsimon207
    It's great that you're taking the time to give feedback to so many games on the forum , please continue doing so! :).

    Having said that, your feedback on the breast physics is in poor taste and helps cultivate a culture we want to completely avoid.

    We want more women on this forum, and we want them to feel this is a safe space for them to share work and be part of a community. Reducing breasts, an important femininity marker for a lot of women, down to mere objects and analyzing them completely separately from the rest of character design could make women in this community feel objectified and unwelcome. We want to avoid that totally. There are many other issues we could draw from your post, but point is: it's unfriendly. Even if it was intended in humor, it's humor was toxic and at the sake of a group of people.

    So! Please do keep giving feedback on games, but also contribute to the safe and welcoming community we want to foster for everyone :).
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